| 00:04 | <Hixie> | sephr: sorry, was afk |
| 00:05 | <sephr> | sure |
| 00:05 | <Hixie> | sephr: DocumentView is going away altogether, and nobody really implements it, not sure what you mean by that |
| 00:05 | <sephr> | mozilla implements it... |
| 00:05 | <Hixie> | not really |
| 00:05 | <sephr> | yeah I know |
| 00:05 | <sephr> | but at least it exists |
| 00:05 | <sephr> | Hixie: is AbstractView going away too? I would hope for the opposite |
| 00:05 | <Hixie> | re the mutation event thing, yeah, i guess it should, at least assuming textContent changes... does it? |
| 00:05 | <sephr> | for Window to go away |
| 00:05 | <sephr> | Window is a terrible abstraction |
| 00:06 | <Hixie> | AbstractView is meing merged into Window and DocumentView into Document. |
| 00:06 | <sephr> | so DocumentView will === Document? |
| 00:06 | <sephr> | I hope that's how it ends up |
| 00:06 | <Hixie> | DocumentView won't exist, the stuff that's on it today will be on Document |
| 00:06 | <sephr> | will AbstractView === Window at least? |
| 00:07 | <sephr> | AbstractView is much much more appropriately named |
| 00:07 | <sephr> | than Window |
| 00:07 | <Hixie> | AbstractView will similarly not exist and its stuff will be moved to Window |
| 00:07 | <sephr> | I would prefer if it was named View even |
| 00:07 | <sephr> | :( |
| 00:07 | <Hixie> | we can't change this stuff, there's billions of documents that depend on it |
| 00:07 | <sephr> | has anyone ever raised the suggestion of just making both of them "View" |
| 00:07 | <Hixie> | what's the benefit of doing that? |
| 00:07 | <sephr> | yeah, but there can be aliases |
| 00:07 | <sephr> | Hixie: it sounds more appropriate |
| 00:07 | <Hixie> | aliases add no features and increase bugs |
| 00:07 | <AryehGregor> | Then it's even more confusing. |
| 00:08 | <sephr> | well "Window" existing is a bug imo |
| 00:08 | <AryehGregor> | You have two different names but they actually secretly refer to the same thing. |
| 00:08 | <sephr> | and there's a window variable but not a "view" variable |
| 00:08 | <sephr> | crazy |
| 00:08 | <Hixie> | by 'bug' i mean something that acts differently in different browsers |
| 00:08 | <sephr> | (though I know "self" is sorta appropriate) |
| 00:08 | <Hixie> | if you want to use View, just put View = Window at the top of your code :-) |
| 00:09 | <sephr> | Hixie: what about making a view variable? the w3c seems fine with tons of variables that all are the view |
| 00:09 | <sephr> | self, document.defaultView, window, ... |
| 00:10 | <sephr> | oh I got sidetracked |
| 00:10 | <sephr> | my question was about mutation events from DOM Style changes |
| 00:10 | <sephr> | "should stylesheet.insertRule('x{}', stylesheet.cssRules.length); trigger a DOM mutation event?" |
| 00:11 | <sephr> | assuming stylesheet is just some stylesheet from document.styleSheets |
| 00:11 | <Hixie> | we already have like fifteen aliases for window, let's not add more... it really won't help anything. If you need an alias, just say view = window at the top of your code. |
| 00:11 | <Hixie> | like i said, aliases add no features and add bugs, so we don't do them generally |
| 00:13 | <sephr> | Hixie: alright, sure |
| 00:18 | <sephr> | Hixie: missed my other question? |
| 00:19 | <Hixie> | <Hixie> re the mutation event thing, yeah, i guess it should, at least assuming textContent changes... does it? |
| 00:19 | <sephr> | oh yeah |
| 00:20 | <sephr> | didn't see that |
| 00:20 | <sephr> | well textcontent doesn't change, but it should, shouldn't it? |
| 00:20 | <Hixie> | i dunno, what does the spec for insertRule say? |
| 00:21 | <sephr> | Hixie: while I look that up, should someElement.style.color="red"; trigger it at least? |
| 00:21 | <sephr> | because I can't get any browsers firing it from that either |
| 00:23 | <Hixie> | i dunno, does it change the content attribute's value? |
| 00:24 | <sephr> | Hixie: yes |
| 00:24 | <sephr> | and the insertRule spec is way too vague |
| 00:25 | <sephr> | it doesn't mention anything about the resulting DOM tree changes |
| 00:26 | <Hixie> | if the attribute's value changes, then an attribute mutation event should presumably fire |
| 00:26 | <Hixie> | so i expect in practice most UAs jsut serialise the attribute on the fly |
| 00:26 | <Hixie> | and there isn't really a content attribute |
| 00:26 | <Hixie> | re insertRule, is the spec vague, or does it just not mention it because it doesn't apply? |
| 00:26 | <Hixie> | if it's vague, file a bug |
| 00:28 | <sephr> | Hixie: it applies, but it's not mentioned almost anywhere in the entire DOM Level 2 Style spec |
| 00:28 | <sephr> | nodes are only referenced when talking about the owner node of a stylesheet |
| 00:28 | <sephr> | and what to do if said node is removed from a document |
| 00:36 | <Hixie> | my guess is that it actually doesn't apply, and that insertRule just changes the internal representation, not the DOM |
| 00:36 | <Hixie> | but anne would know better |
| 00:42 | <sephr> | k, thanks. I'll memoserv [her]? |
| 00:59 | <Hixie> | him |
| 01:04 | <sephr> | Hixie: too late, heh |
| 01:04 | <sephr> | I guess he's afk |
| 03:34 | <Hixie> | so generally, the scope of an ISSUE in the HTMLWG is the change requested in the bug that was escalated for that issue, right? |
| 03:35 | <Hixie> | so what's the scope for an issue that is escalated in response to a bug that was fixed? |
| 05:54 | <erlehmann> | i want a html5 imageboard. with <audio> and <video>, <canvas> and localstorage. |
| 05:54 | <erlehmann> | WHO IS WITH ME. |
| 05:55 | <Hixie> | imageboard? |
| 05:55 | <Hixie> | oh like 4chan and so on? |
| 05:55 | <erlehmann> | yep. |
| 05:55 | <Hixie> | i never understood the attraction of hosting what are essentially mailing lists over HTTP. |
| 05:55 | <Hixie> | but knock yourself out :-) |
| 05:56 | <erlehmann> | mailing lists are serious business, almost by definition. and personalized. isn't easy to mail anonymous. |
| 05:56 | <erlehmann> | but the barrier to entry is low on web forms. (web forms 1.0, ha ha ha) |
| 05:57 | <Hixie> | (that's why we called it web forms 2 :-) ) |
| 05:57 | <Hixie> | e-mail is incredibly easy to make anonymous |
| 05:57 | <Hixie> | the underlying protocols have basically no authentication at all |
| 05:57 | <Hixie> | same with USENET |
| 05:58 | <erlehmann> | i met moot in 2009 at a conference. he said he wasn't so impressed about HTML5, but it might be a boon to YTMND, looping sounds without flash. |
| 05:58 | <Hixie> | makes sense |
| 05:58 | <erlehmann> | i am amazed i have not yet encountered a HTML5 based shock site. that would be awful. |
| 05:59 | <Hixie> | i never understood the people who are "impressed" by "html5" |
| 05:59 | <Hixie> | i mean, we're just continuing to evolve html |
| 05:59 | <erlehmann> | and work on iphones, hehe |
| 05:59 | <Hixie> | evolution is rarely impressive |
| 05:59 | <erlehmann> | well, like other imageboard people, the focus is on text and images. even canvas isn't something they are going to use soon. |
| 06:00 | <Hixie> | sure, why would they? |
| 06:00 | <erlehmann> | dunno, instant image macro creation? |
| 06:00 | <Hixie> | that'd be like an e-mail client or NNTP client having a built-in image editor, it'd be a bit weird |
| 06:00 | <Hixie> | *shrug* |
| 06:01 | <erlehmann> | hmm, for limited actions this is actually done. on iOS for example, images can be scaled before sending. useful, if you ask me (receiver of those mails) |
| 06:03 | <erlehmann> | but now that i think about it, i might just write a greasemonkey script for inline macro creation. yay for customilazipbilt- you know what i mean to mean. |
| 06:21 | <Hixie> | down to six things to fill in for -129 |
| 06:21 | <Hixie> | erlehmann: i guess |
| 06:21 | <Hixie> | (re e-mail clients) |
| 06:21 | <erlehmann> | ah. |
| 06:37 | <Hixie> | wtf? despite escalating http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10493, the CP for the resulting issue actually does what I did in the spec in response to that bug... |
| 06:44 | <Hixie> | four things. |
| 06:45 | <Hixie> | anyone want to take a crack at explaining why allowing <h1 role=checkbox> is bogus? I'm getting tired of doing this :-) |
| 06:47 | <erlehmann> | wat |
| 06:50 | <erlehmann> | haha, the url is broken because of the appended comma. automagic linking hates your guts. |
| 06:50 | <Hixie> | or maybe your irc client is broken :-) |
| 06:59 | <erlehmann> | Hixie, i think comma is not an unsafe character, but rather a special one. it can occur unencoded. |
| 07:41 | <Hixie> | erlehmann: well my terminal client doesn't select the comma, so from a user perspective... |
| 07:42 | <Hixie> | ok, only one thing left on the CCP, the <h1 role=checkbox> bogosity thing. |
| 07:42 | <Hixie> | if anyone wants to fill that in while i'm sleeping, be my guest. |
| 07:42 | <Hixie> | http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Change_Proposal_for_ISSUE-129 |
| 07:43 | <erlehmann> | Hixie, xchat does and i believe it is correct … for now ;) |
| 07:43 | erlehmann | hopes Hixie is not the editor of the URL spec :D |
| 07:43 | <Hixie> | not currently |
| 07:44 | <erlehmann> | as in “not yet”, harr harr |
| 07:48 | <Evet> | could you recommend a RIA IDE? |
| 08:35 | <Oddant> | Hi |
| 08:36 | <Oddant> | what's the best way to create a website ? dreamweaver, classic enhanced notepads, cms ? |
| 08:39 | <erlehmann> | Oddant, depends on your skillset and the the complexity of the issue at hand. |
| 08:40 | <erlehmann> | for example, i have written small web pages in appropriate text editors, but also used wordpress. currently i am programming a web app in python. |
| 08:40 | <erlehmann> | i would advise you to stay clear of dreamweaver or notepad derivates. there are much better editors out there. |
| 08:41 | <erlehmann> | Oddant, if you found this IRC channel, maybe getting a text editor with HTML synthax highlighting and starting to code it by hand is not the worst idea, if it is not exceedingly complex. |
| 08:44 | <erlehmann> | as a text editor, i'd recommend geany <http://www.geany.org/>; if you need a GUI editor or nano <http://www.nano-editor.org/>; if you need a CLI editor. |
| 08:44 | <erlehmann> | also, ask other people. i might be wrong on this issue. |
| 08:48 | <erlehmann> | Oddant, before you start, however, keep in mind that although fun and learning are the primary goals of all Enrichment Center activities, serious injuries may occur. For your own safety and the safety of others, please refrain from [static noise] |
| 08:53 | <erlehmann> | *** Please be advised that a noticeable taste of blood is not part of any HTML specification, but is an unintended side effect of the WHATWG Parser Material Emancipation Grid, which may, in semi-rare cases, emancipate XML namespaces, bogus comments and fingertips. *** |
| 08:54 | <erlehmann> | The WHATWG reminds you that the HTML5lib Companion Serializer will never threaten to stab you and, in fact, cannot speak. |
| 08:54 | <erlehmann> | :D |
| 08:58 | <Oddant> | thanks erlehmann |
| 08:59 | <erlehmann> | :) |
| 08:59 | <Oddant> | I'm french then I struggle to understand the whole |
| 08:59 | <Oddant> | but get the primary idea |
| 08:59 | <erlehmann> | Oddant, oh. that last thing was supposed to be a joke. |
| 08:59 | <Oddant> | ha ? |
| 09:00 | <erlehmann> | Oddant, about the safety issues ;) |
| 09:00 | <erlehmann> | Oddant, what operating system aro |
| 09:00 | <erlehmann> | e you on? |
| 09:01 | <erlehmann> | also, do you plan to learn HTML? or do you just want to create a web site? if the latter, just use a simple popular CMS, like wordpress. |
| 09:01 | <Oddant> | i'm using both |
| 09:01 | <Oddant> | window and linux |
| 09:02 | <Oddant> | but hey |
| 09:02 | <Oddant> | i already know html syntax |
| 09:02 | <Oddant> | moreover html5 |
| 09:03 | <erlehmann> | Oddant, this might help with html5: <http://diveintohtml5.org/>; |
| 09:04 | <Oddant> | hey nice website erlehmann |
| 09:04 | <Oddant> | thanks |
| 09:04 | <Oddant> | love the style |
| 09:07 | <erlehmann> | this link is especially funny http://1997.webhistory.org/www.lists/www-talk.1993q1/0198.html |
| 09:07 | <erlehmann> | Jay C. Weber imagined the audio element, hehehe |
| 09:09 | <Oddant> | : |
| 09:09 | <Oddant> | :D |
| 09:10 | <Oddant> | this would be great |
| 09:13 | <Oddant> | hey erlehmann |
| 09:13 | <Oddant> | are you still here ? |
| 09:13 | <erlehmann> | Oddant, still alive. |
| 09:14 | <Oddant> | i've got some questions to ask |
| 09:14 | <Oddant> | ok let's assume i plan to build a website a to z |
| 09:15 | <Oddant> | i write my index page |
| 09:15 | <Oddant> | all the tags that constructs my page |
| 09:15 | <Oddant> | and after that |
| 09:15 | <Oddant> | i need to get into my css stylesheet |
| 09:16 | <Oddant> | ok generally when i reach that level i'm already lost into work |
| 09:16 | <Oddant> | i mean i never know where to begin the design of my page |
| 09:16 | <Oddant> | layouts ok ! |
| 09:16 | <Oddant> | but the common style |
| 09:16 | <Oddant> | like body elements, link |
| 09:17 | <Oddant> | and i'm not talking about converting the new html5 elements into block display |
| 09:17 | <Oddant> | it's hell to build a website :-| |
| 09:18 | <Oddant> | then I was wondering maybe it could be a little better to use softwares like dreamweaver |
| 09:18 | <Oddant> | but i'm not sure about it since i've been told it's easier to make websites with but the code isn't neat, etc.. |
| 09:20 | <Oddant> | what's your thoughts ? |
| 09:26 | <erlehmann> | Oddant, try to map out beforehand how your site is going to be structured. what is your specific problem area, building a stylesheet? |
| 09:27 | <erlehmann> | you may use firebug to experiment with styling then: <http://getfirebug.com/>; |
| 09:27 | <Oddant> | kind of yes |
| 09:28 | <Oddant> | but my primary issue is I never find the time to dive into a project for I feel like I want to build a bunch of websites |
| 09:28 | <Oddant> | :D |
| 09:29 | <Oddant> | also I all the time dive into projects on my very own |
| 09:30 | <erlehmann> | Oddant, if you *do not have time*, just use a popular CMS, like wordpress: <http://wordpress.org/>; |
| 09:30 | <Oddant> | i'd like to find people out to get into some projects |
| 09:30 | <Oddant> | would be the cool |
| 09:30 | <erlehmann> | however, if you want to learn, use aforementioned tools. |
| 09:30 | <Oddant> | what does aforementioned tools mean ? |
| 09:31 | <Oddant> | can you type some examples ? |
| 09:31 | <Oddant> | i'm using notepad++ |
| 09:32 | <erlehmann> | examples of what? |
| 09:32 | <Oddant> | of aforementioned tools ? |
| 09:32 | <erlehmann> | geany or nano. also firebug. |
| 09:33 | <Oddant> | oh yes |
| 09:33 | <Oddant> | ok |
| 09:33 | <Oddant> | thanks |
| 09:33 | <Oddant> | i'm going to be a few nosey |
| 09:33 | <Oddant> | but could you share your websites if you've got |
| 09:33 | <Oddant> | ? |
| 09:44 | <erlehmann> | Oddant, i made this stylesheet. put on anaglyph glasses! blog.fefe.de/?css=http://daten.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/src/fefe-anaglyph-css/anaglyph.css |
| 10:24 | <annevk> | I am looking for a somewhat decent graphics editor for Mac OS X |
| 10:24 | <annevk> | Anyone experience with http://www.pixelmator.com/ ? |
| 10:24 | <annevk> | It looks quite decent |
| 10:26 | <erlehmann> | annevk, vector or pixel graphics? |
| 10:26 | <annevk> | It also seems to be focused primarily on photos... Or is that just heavy marketing of the majority use case? |
| 10:27 | <Rik`> | it's a simple/macos-y photoshop |
| 10:27 | <annevk> | Pixels :) |
| 10:27 | <annevk> | Though if you know a good vector graphics editor, let me know! |
| 10:28 | <erlehmann> | i use inkscape. gimp for pixel graphics, but when do i need to do that? |
| 10:28 | <annevk> | Rik`, I never used Photoshop. I did use Macromedia Fireworks long ago |
| 10:29 | <micheil> | annevk: hicksdesign had a good comparison of the os x editors |
| 10:29 | <annevk> | I have used GIMP on Ubuntu, but did not really like it |
| 10:29 | <Rik`> | and on mac os, gimp and inkscape need X11 so… |
| 10:30 | <erlehmann> | i use gimp for scaling and cropping photos occasionally. nothing more, haha. |
| 10:36 | <annevk> | micheil, http://hicksdesign.co.uk/journal/fireworks-alternatives-on-trial-acorn-drawit-and-opacity ? |
| 10:36 | <micheil_mbp> | i think so |
| 10:36 | micheil_mbp | is on a mobile connection, hence the dropouts |
| 11:22 | <stvs> | what do you guys think of the recent happenings with Google and H.264 support in Chrome, and so on? |
| 11:28 | <annevk> | plenty of discussion in the logs |
| 11:29 | <stvs> | annevk, what is the bird's eye view from #whatwg on the situation? |
| 11:31 | <annevk> | video codecs suck? |
| 11:31 | <stvs> | I was hoping for something more informative and/or insightful? |
| 11:31 | <annevk> | http://annevankesteren.nl/2011/01/why-webm has some info |
| 11:31 | <Dashiva> | There are a lot of big ifs |
| 11:32 | <annevk> | I think in general people here are in favor of a codec that is not encumbered with patents -- i.e. WebM |
| 11:32 | <stvs> | annevk, the title of this article shows bias |
| 11:32 | <annevk> | but yeah, there's ifs |
| 11:32 | <stvs> | I don't need to be told why "the web needs WebM" - we all know the talking points |
| 11:32 | <annevk> | ah well, then I am not sure what you are looking for |
| 11:33 | <stvs> | A neutral argumented opinion :) |
| 11:33 | <annevk> | good luck with that |
| 11:33 | <stvs> | You know the X264 core dev called VP8 "basically H.264 baseline profile with a better entropy encoder" |
| 11:33 | <stvs> | He says it's insane to think that VP8 is not stepping on H264's patents |
| 11:34 | <Dashiva> | Patents are for patent lawyers to handle |
| 11:34 | <stvs> | It also managed to be about 25% slower |
| 11:34 | <annevk> | stvs, he is obviously not biased |
| 11:34 | <stvs> | Dashiva, if they are, why are we not uasing H.264 |
| 11:34 | <Dashiva> | Because the patent lawyers already wrangled h264 |
| 11:35 | <stvs> | annevk, he's not biased because he's under heat from MPEG LA for his work himself |
| 11:35 | <stvs> | annevk, but facts are facts. |
| 11:35 | <stvs> | annevk, in fact he implemented a VP8 decoder with H.264's code |
| 11:36 | <stvs> | Adding just a few kb for the vp8 specific parts |
| 11:36 | <stvs> | That should tell you enough |
| 11:36 | <Peter`> | I'm sure Google had lawyers all over VP8 before they bought the IP |
| 11:36 | <annevk> | stvs, I know that; I would still say he is biased |
| 11:36 | <stvs> | Peter`, just like they had it over Android's Java knockoff? And then Oracle sued them. |
| 11:37 | <Peter`> | Yes, but that's Google's problem, not ours |
| 11:37 | <stvs> | Peter`, I'm not sure how good Google's lawyers are with reading C code of video codecs |
| 11:37 | <stvs> | Peter`, it is, because people give poorly argumented opinions in favor of WebM |
| 11:37 | <Dashiva> | stvs: Filing a suit is not the same as actually winning a suit |
| 11:37 | <Peter`> | I'm fairly sure they're way more thorough than a large part of the web developers combined |
| 11:37 | <stvs> | because it sounds "openish" |
| 11:37 | <stvs> | Dashiva, oh they'll win |
| 11:37 | <stvs> | Dashiva, or settle |
| 11:37 | <stvs> | I mean Oracle will. |
| 11:38 | <Dashiva> | Clearly we can just shut down the justice system and let you decide everything |
| 11:38 | <Peter`> | Fortunately you're not being biased yourself as well, stvs :-) |
| 11:38 | <Rik`> | stvs: to me it breaks down to Firefox and Opera won't implement H.264 so we need something else |
| 11:38 | <stvs> | Dashiva, let's say I'm about 85% sure they'll win or settle in favor of Oracle. |
| 11:38 | <annevk> | did you just join this channel so you could rant? |
| 11:39 | <stvs> | Rik`, Opera and Firefox could've stuck to the OS for providing the H.264 decoder. Included with every copy of OSX and Windows. |
| 11:39 | <stvs> | And Linux doesn't give a damn about licenses, they have x264 |
| 11:39 | <annevk> | or maybe tell us how the world works? |
| 11:39 | <Peter`> | The web needs one common codec and it's not going to be H.264. I don't really care if it's WebM, Theora or whatever other codec, but pushing WebM more strongly is a step forward from where we are now. |
| 11:40 | <annevk> | If we would have suck to the OS it would not have been cross-platform |
| 11:40 | <annevk> | stuck* |
| 11:40 | <annevk> | that would not have been an improvement over the status quo imo |
| 11:40 | <annevk> | just replacing one problem with another |
| 11:40 | <Rik`> | "Linux doesn't give a damn about licenses", that's a very unbiased statement… |
| 11:41 | <stvs> | annevk, user software always relies on the OS API-s for basically everything. How are codecs different |
| 11:41 | <stvs> | Rik`, I'm saying they use x264, despite not possibly having a valid H.264 license. |
| 11:41 | <Rik`> | stvs: Win XP is not coming with H.264 codecs |
| 11:41 | <stvs> | You're welcome to make it sound better Rik` |
| 11:41 | <annevk> | browsers are quite independent from the OS |
| 11:42 | <annevk> | that's e.g. what makes projects like Chromium OS possible |
| 11:42 | <stvs> | Chrome OS is Linux based annevk. |
| 11:42 | <Rik`> | stvs: x264 is legal in a large part of the world (not in the US of course) |
| 11:42 | <annevk> | and certainly when it comes to page rendering the only external running code has been plugins |
| 11:42 | <stvs> | Rik`, yes, indeed. |
| 11:42 | <annevk> | until video came along |
| 11:43 | <stvs> | annevk, that's really inaccurate. |
| 11:43 | <annevk> | stvs, sure, some amount of Linux code for hardware bindings |
| 11:43 | <stvs> | Yes |
| 11:44 | <stvs> | And for the user environment and APIs |
| 11:44 | <annevk> | stvs, inaccurate in what way? you mean that at some point you get OS-level calls? |
| 11:44 | <stvs> | And file system and kernel and so on. |
| 11:44 | <stvs> | It's Linux with Chrome on top and a custom shell. |
| 11:44 | <stvs> | That's Chrome OS |
| 11:44 | <Peter`> | lol, I wasn't aware Linux boots that fast. |
| 11:44 | <annevk> | what I mean is that the browser does processing of HTML, CSS, image formats, etc. |
| 11:44 | <Peter`> | Chrome OS is a little bit more than just that, stvs |
| 11:45 | <stvs> | Peter`, of course it boots fast. |
| 11:45 | <Peter`> | The source-code is available, go have a look yourself. Your statement is nonsense |
| 11:45 | <annevk> | (though admittedly it differs for some browsers, e.g. WebKit uses platform libraries for images I think) |
| 11:45 | <stvs> | Have you guys not seen some motherboards which have embeded Linux as alt-boot environment. |
| 11:45 | <stvs> | With a browser and some quick apps. |
| 11:45 | <annevk> | stvs, no man, we're morons |
| 11:45 | <annevk> | stvs, you must have realized that by now |
| 11:45 | <stvs> | annevk, why would you insult yourself now? |
| 11:46 | <annevk> | I was mocking you |
| 11:46 | <stvs> | annevk, yes, because? |
| 11:46 | <stvs> | Peter`, yes, you say that, but have you looked at it yourself? It builds on top of Debian Linux. |
| 11:47 | <annevk> | stvs, I'm getting bored with this silly discussion |
| 11:47 | <Peter`> | Haha. I've got better things to do. |
| 11:47 | <Rik`> | stvs: so again, what's the purpose of your presence here ? |
| 11:47 | <stvs> | annevk, it's boring to be wildly inaccurate ;) |
| 11:47 | <stvs> | I'm not doing anything beside correcting your guys/gals :| |
| 11:48 | <stvs> | Rik`, I was wondering if I could get an informed opinion on WebM |
| 11:48 | <stvs> | Maybe I could but not by the people currently present I think. |
| 11:48 | <Rik`> | you already have your opinion… |
| 11:48 | <stvs> | Rik`, I have no opinion. I've only cited facts, and have no opinion |
| 11:49 | <annevk> | lol |
| 11:49 | <annevk> | but Oracle is gonna win that lawsuit |
| 11:49 | <annevk> | fact |
| 11:49 | <stvs> | I have no idea what to make of this to be honest. |
| 11:49 | <Rik`> | sure, let's go do something else |
| 17:39 | <Oddant> | hello |
| 17:39 | <Oddant> | i need some help for my website |
| 17:40 | <Oddant> | someone here ? |
| 17:41 | <Oddant> | well here's something that makes me really angry |
| 17:41 | <Oddant> | I can't figure out how make my menu neat |
| 17:41 | <Oddant> | i've got a <ul> menu |
| 17:41 | <Oddant> | with <li> elements |
| 17:42 | <Oddant> | and each <li> are <a> |
| 17:42 | <Oddant> | <ul> <li><a href=1>link1</a></li> <li><a href=2>link2</a></li> ... </ul> then |
| 17:43 | <Oddant> | clicking on one link bring you one the associated page |
| 17:43 | <Oddant> | and the current link get the css class .selected |
| 17:44 | <Oddant> | .selected { font-weight:bold; } |
| 17:44 | <Oddant> | but my issue applying this style is that the <li> elements get an offset |
| 17:44 | <Oddant> | of a bunch of pixels |
| 17:44 | <Oddant> | and it's not really neat |
| 17:46 | <Oddant> | what's the way to change to make it having a better looking |
| 17:46 | <Oddant> | ? |
| 17:46 | <Oddant> | thanks |
| 18:44 | <pluma> | Oddant: might want to check #html instead |
| 18:44 | <pluma> | Oddant: or #css rather |
| 20:22 | <othermaciej> | is there a spec for document.getSelection()? |
| 20:22 | <othermaciej> | it doesn't seem to be spec'd in HTML5 |
| 20:23 | <AryehGregor> | othermaciej, http://html5.org/specs/dom-range.html#apis-for-the-browsing-context-selection:-the-selection-interface |
| 20:23 | <AryehGregor> | It used to be in HTML5 but was broken out. |
| 20:24 | <AryehGregor> | (I don't think the spec is anywhere in W3C space.) |
| 20:24 | <AryehGregor> | I'm currently working on speccing various underspecified or misspecified aspects of it, currently extend() and then modify(). |
| 20:24 | <othermaciej> | I see |
| 20:25 | <othermaciej> | I was going to point out to the A11Y TF that adding a <selection> element is pointless given the document.getSelection() interface |
| 20:25 | <othermaciej> | but now I have nothing to point to in w3c space |
| 20:25 | <Ms2ger> | Please, don't send them my way |
| 20:25 | <AryehGregor> | Then toString() then createContextualFragment() then execCommand(), apparently. Actually, it looks like I'll be spending a couple of months of this. |
| 20:25 | <AryehGregor> | Well, the spec used to be part of HTML. Why was it split out? |
| 20:25 | <Ms2ger> | createContextualFragment is specced |
| 20:25 | <AryehGregor> | Given that it's not being actively edited anyway, could it be merged back in? |
| 20:26 | <AryehGregor> | Ms2ger, then that part will be easy. :) |
| 20:27 | <AryehGregor> | Ms2ger, do you know why DOM Range was split out of HTML5? |
| 20:27 | <Ms2ger> | Range was never in |
| 20:27 | <AryehGregor> | Oh. |
| 20:27 | <AryehGregor> | Was Selection in? |
| 20:27 | <Ms2ger> | Selection because of the bugs you're fixing, I guess |
| 20:28 | <Ms2ger> | And the deadline for pre-LC bugs |
| 20:29 | <AryehGregor> | othermaciej, could we just stick it in the HTMLWG space as an ED? |
| 20:30 | <othermaciej> | who is "we" in that sentence? |
| 20:30 | <othermaciej> | the editors of the document are welcome to submit it |
| 20:30 | <Ms2ger> | I'm still waiting for a reply from the W3C lawyers they promised a few months ago |
| 20:31 | <AryehGregor> | What question did you ask the W3C lawyers? |
| 20:36 | <AryehGregor> | Since it seems like I'll be doing a bunch of DOM Range stuff over the next couple of months, I could be editor if an editor is needed to submit it, but probably only until August or so. |
| 20:38 | <AryehGregor> | Regardless, a <selection> element is still pointless given getSelection(). Although I don't even know how an element would work, since selections don't have to be nested properly in the DOM. |
| 20:40 | <AryehGregor> | . . . why is getSelection() so horrifyingly complicated? Sheesh. |
| 21:17 | <annevk> | http://al3x.net/2011/01/15/user-hostile-platforms.html -- I cannot help but think that this applies to all platforms but the web |
| 21:17 | <annevk> | well, the user hostile part |
| 21:57 | <sephr> | Is document.renameNode gone for good? |
| 21:57 | <sephr> | if so, what's the alternative? |
| 21:59 | <gsnedders> | sephr: Nothing, the idea is that element names should be immutable |
| 22:00 | <sephr> | gsnedders: then why was it put in DOM 3? |
| 22:01 | <sephr> | also, there *is* an alternative but it's very costly |
| 22:02 | <sephr> | cloneNode(true) a node, then create a new one and setAttributeNodes on it and appendChildren from the clone |
| 22:02 | <sephr> | and then replaceNode |
| 22:10 | <webben> | AryehGregor: Re how <selection> could work with nesting. I think you could just have multiple selection elements where you need discontinuous ranges, whether thanks to non-adjacency or nesting. |
| 22:11 | <annevk> | sephr, DOM 3 was designed for servers |
| 22:11 | <webben> | AryehGregor: You'd probably need to spec some sort of behavior about joining adjacent <selection> elements for the purpose of keyboard modification of the selection. |
| 22:11 | <annevk> | sephr, I mean, non-browser software |
| 22:12 | <sephr> | annevk: what if I'm running this in commonjs with a DOM env? |
| 22:12 | <webben> | AryehGregor: ... assuming this markup is even meant to allow modification independent of script, which isn't clear to me. |
| 22:12 | <sephr> | on my server |
| 22:12 | <annevk> | then feel free to implement renameNode :) |
| 22:12 | <sephr> | annevk: so it *is* still valid to implement? |
| 22:12 | <sephr> | I thought it was invalidated a while ago |
| 22:12 | <annevk> | you can implement whatever you want as far as I'm concerned |
| 22:13 | <sephr> | I mean is it still part of the DOM? |
| 22:13 | <annevk> | it's not part of DOM Core |
| 22:13 | <annevk> | or part of the Web Platform |
| 22:15 | <annevk> | sephr, what I mean is that on the server you can implement whatever you want |
| 22:15 | <annevk> | sephr, e.g. something much nicer than the DOM :) |
| 22:15 | <annevk> | the DOM is quite horrid |
| 22:46 | <annevk> | holy shit |
| 22:46 | <annevk> | I think I am going to lock down some stuff in the WHATWG blog |
| 22:47 | <annevk> | I mean there is no spam going out but the amount of bogus drafted posts there are and amount of contributors... |
| 22:54 | <annevk> | so I just published this |
| 22:54 | <annevk> | http://blog.whatwg.org/whatwg-weekly |
| 22:55 | <annevk> | it does not cover public-html, IRC, or html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker |
| 22:55 | <annevk> | ideally it will next time, I might right an addendum |
| 22:55 | <Hixie> | nice |
| 22:55 | <annevk> | s/right/write/ |
| 22:55 | <Hixie> | add it to the same channel mark was using |
| 22:55 | <Hixie> | in case anyone subscribed to that |
| 22:56 | <Rik`> | annevk++ |
| 22:56 | <annevk> | I wasn't sure whether that would be appropriate, but okay |
| 22:56 | <Hixie> | i guarantee mark won't mind, and i can't see any other reason not to do it |
| 22:56 | <annevk> | great |
| 22:57 | Rik` | really enjoys public summaries of group activities |
| 23:02 | <karlcow> | ah, excellent anne |
| 23:03 | <Rik`> | oh, I started my webkit's week 3 days before mark started "this week in html5" |
| 23:03 | <Rik`> | I thought I started it after that |
| 23:04 | <annevk> | so there's two WebKit summaries? |
| 23:04 | annevk | only new about the one from Peter |
| 23:04 | <Rik`> | no, was 2 years ago |
| 23:04 | <annevk> | oh okay |
| 23:04 | <annevk> | if anyone wants a WHATWG blog account just ask on IRC |
| 23:05 | <annevk> | the current policy creates a gigantic mess |
| 23:05 | <annevk> | I mean former policy |
| 23:19 | <AryehGregor> | annevk, Web DOM Core doesn't define things like "parent" and "ancestor"? |
| 23:20 | <annevk> | see the Nodes Model thingie |
| 23:20 | <annevk> | that needs some more text |
| 23:29 | <annevk> | I'm adding this to the WHATWG Blog: http://twitoaster.com/wordpress-plugin/ |
| 23:30 | <annevk> | This includes giving access to a third-party to the WHATWG twitter account via OAuth |
| 23:30 | <annevk> | Let me know if you notice something bad happening |
| 23:31 | <Hixie> | so can i convince anyone to fill in http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Change_Proposal_for_ISSUE-129#Bug_10449:_Allow_an_H1_element_to_be_described_as_a_spinbutton_or_checkbox.2C_etc ? :-) |
| 23:31 | <Hixie> | i did the rest of the ccp :-) |
| 23:36 | <annevk> | hmm uses bit.ly |
| 23:36 | <annevk> | oh well |
| 23:37 | <annevk> | this means we also get http://twitoaster.com/country-in/whatwg/ |
| 23:37 | <annevk> | but it does not seem to track any WebAppsTweet posts? |
| 23:38 | <annevk> | it also thinks "The Web" is located in India |
| 23:38 | <annevk> | oh well |
| 23:38 | <Dashiva> | Where is Web 2.0 located? |
| 23:41 | <annevk> | heh |
| 23:41 | <annevk> | we'll find out if it works when we next post something |
| 23:52 | <annevk> | Peter`, btw, I think you should remove the quotation marks around the headings of posts |
| 23:53 | <annevk> | Peter`, unless it makes sense in a way I have not considered that is |