| 01:26 | <Hixie_> | boblet_: here briefly now |
| 01:53 | <kochi> | MikeSmith: yt? |
| 01:54 | <MikeSmith> | kochi: います。 |
| 01:54 | <MikeSmith> | mission accomplished |
| 01:54 | <MikeSmith> | for publication |
| 01:54 | <kochi> | hello! |
| 01:55 | <MikeSmith> | hey man |
| 01:55 | <kochi> | thanks for your help |
| 01:55 | <MikeSmith> | I didn't do anything! |
| 01:55 | <MikeSmith> | Art did it all |
| 01:55 | <kochi> | BTW, we still list Bono-san's name on the doc |
| 01:55 | <MikeSmith> | oh |
| 01:55 | <MikeSmith> | we can move him to former editor |
| 01:55 | <kochi> | What is the convention for ex-member? |
| 01:56 | <MikeSmith> | usually we just add a "Former editor(s)" heading after the "Editors" heading |
| 01:58 | <kochi> | any example spec which has that? |
| 02:00 | <kochi> | at least, his email address is unreachable now |
| 02:07 | <kochi> | http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/REC-sparql11-query-20130321/ has "Previous Editor" |
| 02:12 | <MikeSmith> | kochi: yeah "Previous Editor" is fine too |
| 02:13 | <MikeSmith> | there really are not rules and no strong convention |
| 02:13 | <MikeSmith> | there really are no rules and no strong convention |
| 02:13 | <kochi> | i see, thanks. I'll follow the "previous editor" school. |
| 02:14 | <kochi> | I'll look into respec whether it supports anything like that. |
| 02:15 | <kochi> | As it is published anyway (Apr.4 version), no way to modify the editor part? |
| 02:17 | <MikeSmith> | kochi: there is a way |
| 02:17 | <MikeSmith> | which is, I edit it in place |
| 02:17 | <MikeSmith> | you want me to do that now? |
| 02:18 | <kochi> | yes, if it's possible! |
| 02:18 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 02:18 | <MikeSmith> | gimme a minutes |
| 02:18 | <kochi> | thanks a lot!! |
| 02:21 | <MikeSmith> | kochi: ok, done - http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-ime-api-20130404/ |
| 02:21 | <MikeSmith> | kochi: btw, also nice to see good feedback from Microsoft |
| 02:21 | <kochi> | Thanks! |
| 02:21 | <MikeSmith> | or rather, the promise of some more feedback upcoming |
| 02:22 | <MikeSmith> | from Travis |
| 02:22 | <MikeSmith> | they clearly seem quite interested in teh API and planning to implement it |
| 02:22 | <kochi> | BTW, hbono at google.com is already unreacheable so could you also remove the address? I think the company name is fine because he belonged to it then. |
| 02:22 | <MikeSmith> | ok, will do |
| 02:22 | <MikeSmith> | do you knwo where Bono-san went to? |
| 02:23 | <kochi> | I heard some rumor, but can't talk about it here ;) |
| 02:23 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 02:24 | <MikeSmith> | yeah I seem to remember hearing the rumor too but can't recall the details |
| 02:24 | <MikeSmith> | anyway I like him and hope he's doing well wherever he is |
| 02:25 | <kochi> | I hope so, too. He should be performing quite awesome wherever he is |
| 02:27 | <kochi> | re Microsoft's feedback, yes, they seem definitely interested. |
| 02:30 | <kochi> | also I'm waiting Nakano-san's feedback. |
| 02:30 | <kochi> | but he seems quite busy. |
| 02:42 | <kochi> | MikeSmith: it seems my name is deleted in the "Editors" section :) |
| 02:44 | <MikeSmith> | oops |
| 02:53 | <kochi> | MikeSmith: Thanks, it looks good now. :) :) |
| 02:54 | <MikeSmith> | great |
| 06:05 | <heycam> | MikeSmith, ping |
| 06:14 | <heycam> | MikeSmith, (nm, I have mailed sysreq) |
| 06:19 | <MikeSmith> | heycam: ok but I'm still happy to check up on it if you want |
| 06:19 | <heycam> | MikeSmith, oh I just wanted to check if it was possible to manually allows mails from a particular address to public-svg-wg |
| 06:19 | <MikeSmith> | sure it is |
| 06:20 | <MikeSmith> | can do it right now |
| 06:20 | <heycam> | MikeSmith, oh great. would you be able to add cam+svgwgrepo⊙mia |
| 06:20 | <heycam> | I changed the svgwg.org repo hooks to use that address some time ago, not realising that it stopped the commit notifications going to the list :/ |
| 06:20 | <MikeSmith> | h |
| 06:20 | <MikeSmith> | ah |
| 06:21 | <MikeSmith> | heycam: ok, done now |
| 06:21 | <heycam> | MikeSmith, great, lemme just test |
| 06:29 | <heycam> | MikeSmith, hmm, something isn't working; http://www.pastebin.mozilla.org/2275132 |
| 06:43 | <MikeSmith> | heycam: please try it again now |
| 06:43 | <tobie> | What's the correct name to refer to JS APIs which are not part of the DOM? Is "BOM" still used? |
| 06:44 | <tobie> | Or does that make me sound real old school? |
| 06:44 | <heycam> | these days I think of BOM as byte order mark |
| 06:44 | <heycam> | but I think people used to use BOM = Browser Object Model |
| 06:45 | <heycam> | MikeSmith, seem to get the same error when talking to the smtp server |
| 06:45 | <heycam> | oh hang on |
| 06:45 | <tobie> | It's the latter I was implying, and it does sound slightly dated, doesn't it? |
| 06:45 | <heycam> | I think it does |
| 06:45 | <heycam> | MikeSmith, "250 Accepted' |
| 06:45 | <heycam> | MikeSmith, I'll try by comitting a change now... |
| 06:46 | <tobie> | mmm. |
| 06:46 | <heycam> | I'd just go with web platform apis or something… dunno if there's a good acronym for it |
| 06:47 | <MikeSmith> | I never heard of "browser object model" before |
| 06:47 | <heycam> | hey, we're free to implement whatever APIs we want: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browser_Object_Model |
| 06:50 | <MikeSmith> | heycam: cool. it's like having the Driving Ace in Mille Bornes |
| 06:51 | heycam | doesn't know what those words mean but can look them up |
| 06:51 | <Ms2ger> | tobie, we call those "DOM" too |
| 06:52 | <tobie> | who is "we"? |
| 06:52 | <Ms2ger> | Me |
| 06:52 | <MikeSmith> | DOM0? |
| 06:53 | <heycam> | oh yeah DOM 0, that term sounds more familiar |
| 06:53 | <tobie> | Ms2ger: You just stepped up your game another level, here. |
| 06:53 | <Ms2ger> | :D |
| 06:53 | <MikeSmith> | it seems to be what we usually call DOM0 |
| 06:54 | <tobie> | Ms2ger: would you say the navigator object is part of the DOM? |
| 06:54 | <Ms2ger> | Yes |
| 06:55 | <tobie> | or really? |
| 06:55 | <tobie> | wow |
| 06:55 | <tobie> | you too, MikeSmith? |
| 06:55 | <heycam> | MikeSmith, so the mail sent from my repo hooks doesn't seem to have made it to the archives yet; neither this manual test http://www.pastebin.mozilla.org/2275183 |
| 06:55 | <tobie> | Or would you say it's a DOM0 API. :D |
| 06:55 | <Ms2ger> | Its implementation lives under dom/ in Gecko :) |
| 06:55 | <heycam> | ha |
| 06:55 | <tobie> | Ms2ger: by definition, this is an implementation detail. :D |
| 06:56 | <Ms2ger> | tobie, and? :) |
| 06:56 | <MikeSmith> | heycam: yeah but I tried sending a message to the list from my own address and it doesn't seem to have made it to the list yet either |
| 06:56 | <heycam> | MikeSmith, ok, might be a delay then |
| 06:56 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 06:58 | <MikeSmith> | tobie: I think DOM0 was defined as whatever the early versions of netscape navigator and IE did that wasn't later defined in a standard spec |
| 06:59 | <MikeSmith> | until HTML5 at least |
| 06:59 | <tobie> | The DOM is a modelization of the HTML contained in the page. navigator, for example, has nothing to do with this. |
| 06:59 | <MikeSmith> | yeah but it's using "DOM" loosely in this case |
| 06:59 | <tobie> | yeah |
| 07:00 | <tobie> | I'm asking because the kind folks at webplatform.org are struggling with this |
| 07:00 | <MikeSmith> | which is better than using BOM which most people have no cleue what it means in that context and it's ambiguous with BOM the byte-order-mark |
| 07:00 | <tobie> | agreed. |
| 07:01 | <Ms2ger> | Would you say that Event is part of the DOM? |
| 07:01 | <tobie> | ha |
| 07:01 | <MikeSmith> | tobie: I suggest the webplatform.org crew got with "what used to be called DOM0 but is not part of the current HTML LS and DOM (Core/4) specifications" |
| 07:01 | <MikeSmith> | *go with |
| 07:01 | <tobie> | sounds great for a url too |
| 07:02 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 07:02 | <MikeSmith> | *now part of |
| 07:02 | <tobie> | what about js apis? |
| 07:08 | <MikeSmith> | tobie: "non-DOM standard JS APIs that are not a standard part of EcmaScript" |
| 07:08 | <heycam> | MikeSmith, would I have got one of those "please approve archival of your email" things to cam+svgwgrepo⊙mia? |
| 07:09 | <heycam> | MikeSmith, I only just checked and allowed through cam+svgwgrepo⊙mia to my address (thought it was automatic with my mail server but apparently not) |
| 07:09 | <MikeSmith> | heycam: you would and you did but I already went into the admin console and approved them for you |
| 07:10 | <heycam> | MikeSmith, aha ok. |
| 07:19 | <jgraham> | We call those things DOM |
| 07:19 | <jgraham> | Even though they are not the Object Model of a Document |
| 07:19 | <jgraham> | But really, if the webplatform.org people can't live with that level of confusion they need a different hobby |
| 07:30 | <tobie> | jgraham: In truth, I'm the one having issues with that level of confusion. |
| 07:31 | <tobie> | It's terribly difficult to teach something which has awfully confusing naming. |
| 07:31 | <Ms2ger> | There's "JS", which is everything in ECMAScript and related extensions |
| 07:32 | <Ms2ger> | And then there's "DOM", which is everything defined in IDL |
| 07:32 | <Ms2ger> | Except for Typed Arrays, those are JS too |
| 07:32 | <heycam> | MikeSmith, the mails came through. thanks a lot! |
| 07:32 | <heycam> | MikeSmith, you can close the sysreq ticket? |
| 07:33 | <MikeSmith> | heycam: yup |
| 08:26 | <zcorpan> | krijn_: please add this to updateFilter() in the log's s.js: |
| 08:26 | <zcorpan> | krijn_: || lis[i].textContent.search(/^# \[\d\d:\d\d\] * .+ is now known as /) == 0 |
| 08:28 | <zcorpan> | krijn_: maybe the other checks should also use textContent.search(/^.... instead, since sometimes people quote such a line and then it shouldn't be hidden |
| 08:45 | <krijn_> | zcorpan: done |
| 08:46 | <zcorpan> | krijn_: thanks |
| 09:27 | <annevk> | tobie: most of the naming should be sorted now though |
| 09:28 | <tobie> | annevk: yeah, I'm just complaining that we have no better name for describing what XHR is than: it's a DOM API. |
| 09:28 | <annevk> | tobie: I'd call it a platform API |
| 09:29 | <annevk> | or just an API really |
| 09:29 | <tobie> | so naming is sorted now... |
| 09:29 | <tobie> | but everyone uses a different nam. |
| 09:29 | <annevk> | Not really sure why TC39 keeps referring to non-DOM stuff as DOM |
| 09:29 | <tobie> | s/nam/name/ |
| 09:30 | <annevk> | Yeah that's true. Some people call elements tags, and tags elements, etc. |
| 09:30 | <tobie> | So this morning I woke, wrote a page long rant on naming choice in webplatform, then doubled check my assumptions in here, trashed the email and went on with my real job. |
| 09:30 | <tobie> | s/woke/woke up/ |
| 09:31 | <tobie> | s/check/checked/ |
| 09:31 | <Ms2ger> | Get some more tea |
| 09:31 | <annevk> | Yeah it's bad. The continued confusion between ECMAScript and JavaScript is also annoying. |
| 09:32 | <tobie> | confusion? |
| 09:32 | <annevk> | Some say it's the same, some say JavaScript is referring in particular to Mozilla's implementation (which I think is nonsense, but you know), ... |
| 09:32 | <Ms2ger> | As opposed to JScript, eh |
| 09:32 | <tobie> | annevk: yeah, that is nonsense |
| 09:33 | <tobie> | JS == common name for ES |
| 09:33 | <tobie> | JS != ES + special Moz thingies. |
| 09:34 | <tobie> | But of course some will disagree. |
| 09:34 | <tobie> | I wish Oracle would just step in here and clarify. |
| 09:34 | <tobie> | :D |
| 09:34 | <Ms2ger> | Let's call it OracleScript |
| 09:35 | <tobie> | That sounds suprising good, actually. |
| 09:35 | <annevk> | Except for the part where it's a new name |
| 09:36 | <tobie> | OracleScript: No need to learn how to code, it will read your mind. |
| 09:37 | <tobie> | These distinctions remind me of comp.lang.javascript |
| 09:39 | jgraham | waits for tobie to go and clean out his brain |
| 09:39 | <tobie> | I'm certainly not going back there. |
| 09:39 | <tobie> | :) |
| 09:44 | <annevk> | ooh man, I sure hope we don't turn into a newsgroup |
| 09:45 | <Ms2ger> | That's a support forum |
| 09:46 | <jgraham> | We are already calcifying and turning into an old standards organisation, just like IETF and W3C did :) |
| 09:49 | <Ms2ger> | We should start a new one |
| 09:49 | <Ms2ger> | Anyone up for a WHICHWG? |
| 09:50 | <jgraham> | I've always wanted WHYWG |
| 09:51 | <darobin> | WITCHWG? |
| 09:58 | <chee> | JS == common name for ES, but JS !== common name for ES |
| 09:59 | <chee> | WATWG |
| 09:59 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, http://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/5 doesn't seem to have noticed that I just pushed another commit there |
| 09:59 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: Dunno what went wrong there |
| 09:59 | <jgraham> | But I triggered the update manually |
| 10:00 | <Ms2ger> | Great, ta |
| 10:02 | <annevk> | "The app Critic will be able to: Read your public information." hmm |
| 10:03 | <jgraham> | Yeah. That's what "public" means, really |
| 10:04 | <jgraham> | (I can't ask for fewer permissions than that) |
| 10:05 | <jgraham> | (which makes sense because I could equally get the public information by scraping github.com) |
| 10:05 | <jgraham> | (but it isn't enough permissions to do useful things like add comments to pull requests or add a "Merge Pull Request" button) |
| 10:06 | <chee> | so rly it's just saying when you log in with github you will have logged in using github |
| 10:07 | <jgraham> | It's saying you'll have logged in using github, but the app won't be able to do anything that it couldn't do even if you hadn't logged in via github and only knew your github username |
| 10:07 | <chee> | right |
| 10:07 | <annevk> | still somewhat weird that this is allowed as the app does not use TLS |
| 10:07 | <annevk> | but I guess that's no big deal, unless the app can ask for more |
| 10:08 | <jgraham> | Nothing is transmitted in the clear |
| 10:08 | <jgraham> | Well, almost nothing |
| 10:09 | <jgraham> | Your github credentials go only to github over https |
| 10:09 | <jgraham> | and the final access token is retrieved from github over https |
| 10:10 | <jgraham> | The only thing that goes in the clear is a temporary code which is tied to a secret |
| 10:10 | <jgraham> | (and the secret is never transmitted) |
| 10:12 | <annevk> | my connection to your server could be MITM'd |
| 10:14 | <jgraham> | True, but what secret information is going over that connection? |
| 10:16 | <jgraham> | I guess someone could steal a cookie and use critic as if they were you |
| 10:18 | <webben> | [re naming conventions for XHR |
| 10:18 | <webben> | what's wrong with BOM? |
| 10:18 | <webben> | (browser object model) |
| 10:18 | <Ms2ger> | Nobody uses it |
| 10:20 | <jgraham> | annevk: Anyway if you can suggest a sutiably inexpensive way to set up TLS I am happy to do so |
| 10:20 | <webben> | Ms2ger: "Nobody" is a bit of an exaggeration. |
| 10:20 | <darobin> | and BOM already means something else |
| 10:20 | <annevk> | webben: means Byte Order Mark |
| 10:20 | <darobin> | something nasty, too |
| 10:20 | <webben> | e.g. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms952643.aspx |
| 10:20 | annevk | goes to urbandictionary |
| 10:21 | <Ms2ger> | Exaggeration is my middle name |
| 10:21 | <webben> | yeah confusion with Byte Order Mark is suboptimal |
| 10:21 | <darobin> | annevk: no, by nasty I really did just mean Byte Order Mark |
| 10:21 | <jgraham> | I thought "Byte Order Mark" was the "something nasty" |
| 10:21 | <annevk> | darobin: aaah, you had me excited |
| 10:21 | <annevk> | "Word that is interchangable with bro, dude, man, friend, buddy, pal, mon, bredrin, n*igga etc used in the trap." |
| 10:22 | <darobin> | annevk: funny that, I thought that Byte Order Mark would actually get you more excited than something saucy from urbandict :) |
| 10:22 | <annevk> | Yo bom, BOM that resource. |
| 10:22 | <darobin> | maybe we should suggest to Unicode that they rename it to Byte Reading Order |
| 10:23 | <annevk> | BRO that shit up |
| 10:23 | <darobin> | extra bonus: "Dude, have you check the Bro Code on that file?" |
| 10:23 | <darobin> | *checked |
| 10:24 | <annevk> | I checked the BRO code and it was totally authoritative of my behavior. |
| 10:24 | <darobin> | the BRO code says I'm Big Endian, baby, uh huh! |
| 10:24 | <annevk> | I think this is much more useful use of my time than trying to come up with a note for Authoritative Metadata, which incidentally is about the same thing. |
| 10:25 | <jgraham> | I'm not sure that authorative metadata is a good use of anyone's time (but don't take my word for it) |
| 10:25 | <darobin> | echo "Authoritative Metadata is just evil." > note-to-tag.txt |
| 10:25 | <darobin> | there, done it for you bro |
| 10:35 | Ms2ger | wonders if anybody plans to implement MediaController |
| 10:36 | jgraham | wanders lonley as a cloud |
| 10:42 | <annevk> | darobin: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/mime-respect-20130405.html |
| 10:42 | <annevk> | darobin: lets see what they say |
| 10:44 | <darobin> | annevk: you just added the warning? |
| 10:44 | <annevk> | darobin: yeah |
| 10:45 | <darobin> | I like it :) |
| 11:45 | <Ms2ger> | darobin, ping |
| 11:54 | <darobin> | Ms2ger: ? |
| 11:55 | <Ms2ger> | darobin, is it possible that the new idl parser doesn't handle const DOMString product = "Gecko"; ? |
| 11:56 | <darobin> | Ms2ger: "The ConstValue part of a constant declaration gives the value of the constant, which can be one of the two boolean literal tokens (true and false), the null token, an integer token, a float token, or one of the three special floating point constant values (-Infinity, Infinity and NaN). " |
| 11:56 | <darobin> | so, yes |
| 11:56 | <Ms2ger> | Oh, it is actually wrong |
| 11:56 | <Ms2ger> | ? |
| 11:57 | <darobin> | the parser is right, I think the spec is wrong |
| 11:57 | <darobin> | WebIDL doesn't support string constants |
| 11:57 | <Ms2ger> | Mm |
| 11:57 | <darobin> | which seems deliberate, but I can't recall why |
| 11:57 | <Ms2ger> | We have some in IDB too |
| 11:58 | <darobin> | yeah |
| 11:58 | <jgraham> | So it's the WebIDL spec that's wrong? >) |
| 11:58 | <darobin> | I've taken the path of slavishly following the spec in the code; I'd really rather this were fixed in the spec |
| 11:58 | <darobin> | jgraham: ayup |
| 11:58 | <jgraham> | s/>/:/ |
| 11:59 | <darobin> | paging heycam|away |
| 12:00 | <jgraham> | It's it like 2am in upsidedown land? |
| 12:00 | <jgraham> | *Isn't |
| 12:00 | <darobin> | it's annevk's fault: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-script-coord/2011OctDec/0040.html |
| 12:00 | <darobin> | jgraham: no, it's 2300 |
| 12:02 | <jgraham> | Ah, I was closer for New Zealand |
| 12:02 | <jgraham> | More evidence that NZ is better I think |
| 12:04 | <darobin> | Ms2ger: full blame for that change should be attributed to annevk, heycam|away, sicking, jgraham, Hixie_, and dom |
| 12:05 | <darobin> | I suggest we hold some kind of punitive tribunal |
| 12:05 | Ms2ger | shakes his fast at those involved |
| 12:06 | <Ms2ger> | "WorkerLocation implements URLUtilsReadOnly, but one is undefined or not an interface" |
| 12:06 | <Ms2ger> | Is it just me, or does that error message read weirdly? |
| 12:06 | <jgraham> | darobin: I can hardly be blames! |
| 12:06 | <jgraham> | *blamed |
| 12:07 | <jgraham> | """Anyway possibly I am starting to sound like someone who cares. I'm not |
| 12:07 | <jgraham> | sure that I am.""" |
| 12:08 | <karlcow> | "I'm not sure that I am." I should keep that around on a yellow sticky note. |
| 12:09 | <Ms2ger> | Does that imply "I'm not sure that I think"? |
| 12:09 | <jgraham> | More like "I might not think", perhaps? |
| 12:11 | <karlcow> | It was maybe a self-warning on the line of "Choose your battle." |
| 12:11 | <karlcow> | or "Do I care enough?", "Is it worth my time?", etc. |
| 12:12 | <darobin> | Ms2ger: where is that error message from? idlharness? |
| 12:12 | <Ms2ger> | Yes |
| 12:12 | <Ms2ger> | Er, no |
| 12:12 | darobin | looks |
| 12:12 | <Ms2ger> | The parser |
| 12:13 | <darobin> | huh |
| 12:13 | <Ms2ger> | ... I think |
| 12:13 | <karlcow> | In my annoying features of the Web list this morning (infinite scrolling with XHR), but do I care enough :) |
| 12:13 | <Ms2ger> | Halp |
| 12:13 | <darobin> | Ms2ger: no, it's from idlharness |
| 12:14 | <darobin> | ah, I see how that weird message comes to be |
| 12:18 | <Ms2ger> | 2021 Pass |
| 12:18 | <Ms2ger> | 1856 Fail |
| 12:18 | Ms2ger | sighs |
| 12:18 | <darobin> | Ms2ger: the error message should now be helpful |
| 12:19 | <Ms2ger> | darobin, ta |
| 12:19 | <Ms2ger> | Now, on another note |
| 12:19 | <darobin> | np |
| 12:19 | <Ms2ger> | Will Blink remove support for HTMLBaseFontElement? |
| 12:22 | <Ms2ger> | Yet another note... |
| 12:22 | <Ms2ger> | 'assert_throws: getting property on prototype object must throw TypeError function "function () { [native code] }" did not throw' isn't an obvious way of saying 'you don't implement onstorage' |
| 12:26 | <darobin> | isn't that the reverse? |
| 12:27 | <jgraham> | Hmm, I thought properties were supposed to be on prototypes? |
| 12:28 | <Ms2ger> | Right |
| 12:28 | <Ms2ger> | But if you do window.Node.prototype.ownerDocument, you get an exception |
| 12:31 | <Ms2ger> | darobin, don't I have push access to the th.js repo? |
| 12:31 | <darobin> | Ms2ger: lemme check |
| 12:32 | <darobin> | now you do |
| 12:32 | <darobin> | I made team web-platform-test allowed to push there, I reckon it makes sense |
| 12:33 | <Ms2ger> | Makes sense to me, at least :) |
| 12:33 | <jgraham> | Well |
| 12:34 | <jgraham> | It would be nice to get code review before people push |
| 12:34 | <jgraham> | Which means using the PR mechanism |
| 12:34 | <Ms2ger> | https://github.com/w3c/testharness.js/pull/22 |
| 12:34 | <Ms2ger> | There you go |
| 12:35 | <darobin> | jgraham: I would expect most people to use PRs |
| 12:35 | <darobin> | were I to make a major change, that's what I would do; but it's convenient to push for the smaller stuff |
| 12:36 | <darobin> | thanks, applied |
| 12:37 | <jgraham> | Yeah, it tends to be small, convenient pushes that break the world :) |
| 12:38 | <jgraham> | I wouldn't object to having a slightly lax system if this were some time critical project with lots of people working on it all the time and lots of churn. But it's not, so asking for review of all changes seems totally reasonable. |
| 12:39 | Ms2ger | is all for review |
| 12:40 | <Ms2ger> | Where do I scribble down enhancement requests for idlharness.js, btw? |
| 12:40 | <darobin> | Ms2ger: the issues? |
| 12:40 | <Ms2ger> | Github issues? Somewhere in bugzilla? |
| 12:40 | <darobin> | if you can avoid bugzilla, I'd be very thankful |
| 12:40 | <Ms2ger> | Hah |
| 12:40 | <darobin> | Ms2ger: in fact the repo has an idlharness label |
| 12:40 | <Ms2ger> | I like bugzilla ;) |
| 12:41 | <darobin> | I guess you'd have to :) |
| 12:41 | <Ms2ger> | And it has a bunch of issues already |
| 12:41 | <zewt> | most of my experience with bugzilla is having it drop a 200x200 matrix of projects and components at me when i'm trying to report a bug and expecting me to know what to click |
| 12:45 | <jgraham> | I can't express the joy I feel at the thought of using an issue tracker system designed to let <del>idtions</del><ins>delightful humorists</ins> add animated gifs as comments. |
| 12:45 | <jgraham> | *idiots |
| 12:45 | <jgraham> | Sigh |
| 12:45 | <zewt> | yeah that's not a good word to typo |
| 12:46 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, jira? |
| 12:46 | darobin | barfs |
| 12:46 | <darobin> | don't do things like that man |
| 12:46 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: I don't think jira lets you do that. |
| 12:46 | <jgraham> | I mean it's bad, but not *that* bad |
| 12:46 | <darobin> | jira doesn't let you do anything |
| 12:46 | <jgraham> | Also, no one runs JIRA exposed to the web (right?!) |
| 12:47 | <zewt> | i think that's usually the point heh |
| 12:47 | <darobin> | most of my memories of jira involve using Firebug to remove the disabled flag on its submit button because 1) it disables it on click, 2) the backend times out all the time |
| 12:47 | <jgraham> | I have to say I have never had the particular problem |
| 12:47 | <zewt> | heh yeah i've written user scripts to kill forms that do that (in other things) |
| 12:49 | <zewt> | they're painfully annoying to write in chrome compared to firefox though |
| 12:49 | <zewt> | since i have to edit it, switch to settings dialog, drop it in, confirm instead of just editing it in-place and reloading |
| 12:54 | <zewt> | ... so, is gmail really now trying to force everyone to top-post, with no option to stop collapsing quotes on reply? |
| 13:10 | <annevk> | press down, hit enter |
| 13:10 | <annevk> | hsivonen: opting out of synchronous access to CSSOM needs elaboration |
| 13:10 | <annevk> | hsivonen: does it mean it will suddenly appear at some point? |
| 13:14 | <hsivonen> | annevk: I'd make it unavailable unless the page calls some async method for requesting availability first |
| 13:14 | <hsivonen> | to avoid race conditions |
| 14:06 | <hsivonen> | John Foliot sure likes DRM: supporting even a withdrawn EME CfC. :-) |
| 14:07 | <zewt> | every time? not okay |
| 14:07 | <zewt> | ... how does anyone get anything done in eclipse? it's the buggiest IDE i've used in years |
| 14:07 | <hsivonen> | Eclipse is very good for Java |
| 14:07 | <zewt> | i spend more time fighting with its imaginative bugs than getting work done, where it'll randomly decide to have no text cursor, scroll edit boxes around uncontrollably and now my arrow keys won't work |
| 14:08 | <zewt> | it's heinous |
| 14:08 | <hsivonen> | pretty good for C++, too |
| 14:09 | <hsivonen> | too bad their QA for CDT is so bad that they mamaged to break debugging and ship a couple of major releases with debugging broken |
| 14:09 | <hsivonen> | don't they dogfood that stuff? |
| 14:09 | <zewt> | this feels like a product with barely any QA at all |
| 14:09 | <hsivonen> | C++ debugging that is |
| 14:10 | <zewt> | never used it for anything but android java |
| 14:10 | Ms2ger | kicks Opera |
| 14:11 | <zewt> | ... apparently it deleted the key bindings for arrow movement and some other things (and not just me; found it on SO) |
| 14:11 | <zewt> | o_O |
| 14:14 | <zewt> | heh great, there's a bug report on eclipse that has a year and a half of lots of people going "yeah me too" and that's about it |
| 14:18 | <gsnedders> | Ms2ger: Hey, we're better than Eclipse! |
| 14:19 | <zewt> | don't get too excited, MSVC and Xcode are other things that are better than Eclipse |
| 14:27 | <Ms2ger> | Git people! |
| 14:27 | <Ms2ger> | How do I commit only some of the changes I made to a file? |
| 14:30 | <gsnedders> | git add -p |
| 14:36 | <jgraham> | Indeed, git add -p is awesome |
| 14:36 | <jgraham> | It is the only way to add |
| 14:38 | <darobin> | has anyone considered making tests for IPv6 support in the TS? |
| 14:38 | <darobin> | I ask because we have the option of having w3c-test.org be IPv6 enabled |
| 14:38 | <SimonSapin> | I like git cola, if only to select lines to commit with a cursor |
| 14:40 | <Ms2ger> | I prefer Coca Cola, myself |
| 14:41 | <jgraham> | darobin: I haven't, but if we have the option we should of course take it |
| 14:41 | <jgraham> | Could be needed for all sorts of things e.g. the URL spec tests |
| 14:42 | <darobin> | jgraham: yeah that's what I was thinking |
| 14:42 | <darobin> | I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't asking for something that for some reason I hadn't thought of wasn't needed |
| 14:42 | <darobin> | it's a go then |
| 14:42 | <darobin> | we should get it soon |
| 14:43 | <jgraham> | SimonSapin: I don't really believe in frontends for git, for some reason |
| 14:43 | <darobin> | think what you want of W3C, the System team is awesome :) |
| 14:43 | <darobin> | jgraham: but... but... they exist! I've seen them! |
| 14:43 | <SimonSapin> | jgraham: me neither, in general, except for the particular use case |
| 14:44 | <jgraham> | darobin: Insert an implied "the utility of" is you must :p |
| 14:44 | <jgraham> | *if |
| 14:44 | <jgraham> | One day i will type all the words I think and not random other words |
| 14:45 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, okay, two and a half hours, but I managed to address your first comment about Aryeh's reflection tests |
| 14:50 | <zcorpan> | is this misplaced or deliberate? https://github.com/w3c/testharness.js/tree/master/media |
| 14:51 | <Ms2ger> | zcorpan, uh, you'd have to ask the person who added them |
| 14:51 | <Ms2ger> | zcorpan, I believe that was zcorpan |
| 14:51 | <zcorpan> | that predated it moving to github |
| 14:51 | <zcorpan> | iirc |
| 14:52 | <Ms2ger> | But yeah, I believe resources/media was intentional |
| 14:52 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: Great |
| 14:53 | <darobin> | they're useful |
| 14:53 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: value !== -0? |
| 14:55 | <Ms2ger> | Something wasn't happy with -0s |
| 14:56 | <Ms2ger> | I suppose... |
| 14:56 | <Ms2ger> | foo.bar = -0 |
| 14:56 | <Ms2ger> | assert_equals(foo.bar, -0) |
| 14:57 | <jgraham> | Hmm, assert_equals is supposed to distinguish -0 and 0 |
| 14:58 | <Ms2ger> | Oh, hmm |
| 14:58 | <Ms2ger> | This makes my head hurt |
| 14:58 | <darobin> | assert_equals isn't just === ? |
| 14:58 | <Ms2ger> | Let's see what happens when I take it out |
| 14:58 | <jgraham> | darobin: assert_equals is SameValue in ES terms |
| 14:58 | <Ms2ger> | And I'd need to check if Aryeh actually calls into assert_equals |
| 14:59 | <jgraham> | darobin: http://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es5.1-final.html#sec-9.12 |
| 15:00 | <gsnedders> | darobin: assert_equals is === but where NaN is equal to itself and 0 and -0 differ. |
| 15:02 | <darobin> | interesting, and pretty cool actually |
| 15:02 | <Ms2ger> | Is that ==, ===, ==== or =====? |
| 15:03 | <jgraham> | =, =, ==, ===, =====, ======== |
| 15:05 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: How many of the asserts rely on built-ins not being modified? |
| 15:06 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, so if I drop that, I get additional failures like |
| 15:06 | <Ms2ger> | canvas.height: setAttribute() to "-0" followed by IDL get assert_equals: expected -0 but got 0 |
| 15:07 | <jgraham> | That sounds like a bug somewhere |
| 15:07 | <jgraham> | I'm not sure where though :) |
| 15:07 | <jgraham> | Presumably integer types in WebIDL should never be -0 |
| 15:07 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: I'd like to remove all dependencies on built-ins not being modified, and hence capture them ahead-of-time. |
| 15:08 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: You mean how much use does it makes of the ES "stdlib"? |
| 15:08 | <jgraham> | The answer is more or less "I'm not sure" |
| 15:09 | <jgraham> | What's your use case? |
| 15:09 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Object.hasOwnProperty is used a fair bit |
| 15:09 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, I guess it's better to move the test into ReflectionTests.parseInt |
| 15:09 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Using testharness.js for JS tests. |
| 15:09 | <jgraham> | OK |
| 15:09 | <jgraham> | Well it seems like it has a certain cost |
| 15:10 | <Ms2ger> | gsnedders++ |
| 15:10 | <jgraham> | We could of course create an object called es or something |
| 15:10 | <jgraham> | and then do es.Object.hasOwnProperty |
| 15:10 | <jgraham> | Does that sound sufficient |
| 15:10 | <jgraham> | ? |
| 15:11 | <Ms2ger> | Where es.Object is a copy of Object, I guess? |
| 15:11 | <jgraham> | Yeah |
| 15:11 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: capturing them along where settings and the like is created? That WFM. |
| 15:11 | <jgraham> | var es = {null:null, undefined:undefined, Object:Object, [...]} |
| 15:12 | <gsnedders> | undefined may as well equal void 0 |
| 15:12 | <Ms2ger> | Well crap |
| 15:12 | <gsnedders> | Given that's guaranteed to be write. |
| 15:12 | <gsnedders> | write? right. |
| 15:12 | <jgraham> | Left? |
| 15:12 | <gsnedders> | Up up, down down? |
| 15:14 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, and moving the test also fixes some tabIndex tests, let me push that |
| 15:16 | <darobin> | is there a reason why srcdoc couldn't have blob url instead of about:srcdoc? |
| 15:28 | <zcorpan> | can you open a blob url in a new tab? |
| 15:29 | <jgraham> | Probably not |
| 15:29 | <jgraham> | Or, maybe? |
| 15:30 | <jgraham> | No, I guess middle clicking a link gives you a seperateES environment with window.opener unset |
| 15:34 | <darobin> | mmm, good question |
| 15:42 | <darobin> | it works at least in Fx20: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?saved=2204 |
| 15:43 | <darobin> | whether that's a good thing is another question :) |
| 15:44 | <darobin> | oooh |
| 15:44 | <darobin> | Chrome actually does something interesting: when you open the blob url in a new tab it turns it into blob:http%3A//software.hixie.ch/39326891-4ab9-4254-a3a6-0ab4c4cb3cd1 |
| 15:47 | <darobin> | ah, no, it's not on clicking it's before, I was looking in the wrong place |
| 16:37 | <dglazkov> | good morning, Whatwg! |
| 23:01 | <annevk> | Ah man, www-tag thread is so useless |
| 23:12 | <hober> | annevk: yup. sorry! |